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The Science of Having Fun; And improving missions
Topic Started: Jul 31 2009, 12:49:50 AM (411 Views)
Munchkinator	Jul 31 2009, 12:49:50 AM Post #1
Don't waste my time. Posts: 2,946 Group: Architect Member #1 Joined: Mar 22, 2008 Proficiency AP Boost Rank Alpha	So during a shower earlier, I had a random idea for missions. But first, the issue, as it currently stands, is twofold: a Harbinger idling out brings the mission to an instant screaming halt, and one person not posting... brings the mission to a screaming halt. Given the performance of some people so far -myself included- not to mention the propensity of RPers in general to occasionally stop, drop, and fucking disappear, we've seen that this is an issue. A large issue. At least doubly or triply so considering how mission-focused the game is and how much of most players' enjoyment comes from having running missions, rather than waiting for one to start up or chug back into motion. The current system, I'm coming to realize, is a bit inflexible; in a perfect world it would work admirably, but we don't live in a perfect world, so whatever we end up with needs to be flexible enough to handle any common issues, while not being too complex (aka, not adding a shit-ton of rules and "everything must happen at xyz at the stroke of midnight") or in any way user-unfriendly. Keeping the mission statement in mind, I'd like to both solicit opinions as to the general consensus of how accurate my assessment was and suggest a couple fixes; nothing too major on a mechanics level, but enough of a change of scope and routine that I feel that pretty much everyone should be able to pitch in with their opinions, rather than just keeping this to staff boards. Keep it civil, try not to yell at me too much for what happened in Hell March, etc etc. The basic idea here is that we want to make things quicker, more efficient, and give people a bit more freedom without cheapening the entire point of being a Harbinger, which is to say, being able to act like God and order people to their deaths. This all is about twenty million and a half times more important since we'll be opening+advertising sometime in the next, eh, week or so, and missions need to be a smooth, well-oiled machine by then or we're going to get fucked without lube. -_- For starters, a bit of a change to the general routine of missions. Currently, it's Harbinger posts-everyone else posts-Harbinger posts-everyone-etc etc, continued ad nauseum. I propose that we alter this two ways; change the requirement to post again to half (rounded down) of the other people in the mission posting before you can post again (aka: 4 man mission, need 2 other people to post before you can post again. 5 man also needs 2, 6 needs 3, etc). This allows things to move along freely if one person isn't posting, and in the case of larger missions (if or when those occur), allows things to move relatively quickly even if some people are slower posters and others, quicker. Additionally, only the leading Harbinger has any idea what the hell is going on or the authority to move things along. When the Harbinger disappears, the mission crashes to a halt nigh-instantly. Hence, I propose we fill out the currently-vague rules there by ruling that players are more than free to spawn essentially any non-retarded environmental set pieces and continue with the mission as laid out under mission signup under their own direction, whether as a group effort or with an (OOC group-appointed) sub-leader, something along the lines of a temporary promotion to lieutenant. The reasoning behind this section is simple: if a Harbinger idles out mid-mission, fucking over everyone within, they are essentially "turning over the keys," so to speak, to whoever can keep things going. This doesn't give the members free reign to fuck around, do their best to ruin the mission, or change the mission goal - if you're going on a mission to free some captured baby seals and the Harbinger disappears, you're still out to free baby seals. The only difference is that you work off of what you know of the Harbinger's plans so far and fill out everything else along the way with the hivemind. Despite the changes proposed so far, Harbingers retain all of their in character power. Just because people can move on the plot to the end without them now doesn't mean that said grunts can ignore direct Harbinger orders, IC or OOC unless the Harbinger has idled out, and if the Harbinger is active, he's welcome to quash attempts to move the plot on - or welcome them, if he trusts his players to work with him to make an ever more enjoyable mission (or hellish, from an IC perspective - what we enjoy, our characters may not -_-). This section probably isn't actually required, but I wanted to be sure that w're all still on the same page of how Harbingers work: I'll be editing the Missions section of rules soon, and I want everything to be clear and understood before I finalize it. Hotswapping: this is probably the largest of the proposed changes, mainly because the first two could already more or less be agreed upon unofficially between squadmembers. Rather than keeping squads and missions static, I think that it would be interesting to change the dynamics a bit, so to speak; have Arachnos send out agents a large portion of their agents on more general missions, even as simple as 'field support' or something of the sort, and have them also act as field reinforcements if necessary. This would allow squads a little more flexibility while out in the field; if someone just stops responding the Harbinger can dropkick him by claiming that HQ called them off on some other task, and even if there's nothing wrong with the players but they want more people, they can recruit more people OOC with the IC justification that those people were out doing "field work" or something equally vague - or exact, if the player/Harbinger want to come up with something more specific. Effectively, this lets people test people on missions, and if necessary due to OOC issues (not posting, major personality conflict) or for IC plot reasons (danger to team, split up and regroup later), rearrange their mission's members as needed. Again, common sense continues to be required - don't take on a 8 player mission unless you actually WANT to keep track of that hellish mess of posts -, but allows Harbingers a significant upgrade in flexibility, and also allows new players to jump into a mission midway without having to wait for an inevitably slow-to-arrive new mission. tl;dr MISSIONS WOULD BE HARDER TO RUN INTO THE GROUND, Y/N



Coeurla	Jul 31 2009, 01:38:50 AM Post #2
Affaire sérieux Posts: 33 Group: Trainer Member #531 Joined: May 29, 2009 Proficiency AP Boost	Sure :3 I agree with it all. I mean, it's true that currently if ANYONE leaves a mission everyone is fucked over essentially until they decide to return. I'm guilty of being that person on occasion so I would know from experience xP. I really like the posting idea, because I know from Into The Breach, when to post is a big issue (for me anyway). A lot of times I find myself wondering if I should wait or go ahead and post before someone else, blah blah blah. Although I think my problem is more based on using previous posts to fuel my own, since a lot of times not a lot happens in a post. I think what happens a lot of times is that once someone dishes out a short, "filler" post, it turns into a vicious cycle (once again, for me that is). Anyway, I like all of the other changes. I like how members will have a little more freedom in a Harbinger's absence. I'm personally happy about being able to have more freedom to develop the scene a bit more, because I know a personal issue I have a lot of times with posting is that I think "Wait, can I do that? What does this place look like?" and I feel afraid to improvise since I don't want to ruin anything ._.
	Coeurla's Profile ~ Into the Breach


Munchkinator	Jul 31 2009, 01:59:40 AM Post #3
Don't waste my time. Posts: 2,946 Group: Architect Member #1 Joined: Mar 22, 2008 Proficiency AP Boost Rank Alpha	Da, komrade. Tentatively moving into "assuming people aren't total morons" territory, now that reg standards have skyrocketed up past "will accept anyone" to "will accept anyone who can string together a coherent paragraph or ten." We'll see how it works out in the long run, but I mean, people here, I trust all of 'em not to fuck things up too horribly. There's bound to be some confusion at some point if/when this is all finalized, but overall I think it'll be a positive change; if we continue to only accept not-shitty RPers and discourage drama/being failboats, we won't have to worry about overly strict rules and as many failsafes for failboatage, so we can give people more power over scenes with the implicit understanding that they won't abuse it, merely use it as necessary. RP for fun and profit! As for posting/player running, not gonna lie, a lot of it is my reaction to my own fail at Hell March. I'd rather have sacrificed the plot I had going than holding it up for like two weeks, and if I'd realized the problem, probably would have. -_- Filler posts... yeah, those annoy me too. Occasionally I have to fix my own up to keep up to some sort of decent standards, but generally speaking, it should be a little easier to avoid those now as you noticed. ALL IN THE NAME OF OVER 9000 WORDS POSTS. Or not. Please don't make me read all that, it's bad enough when I do it in Liberi Fatali and no one but the grader has to read all that word vomit.



Endy	Jul 31 2009, 06:49:31 AM Post #4
Posts: 60 Group: Trainer Member #552 Joined: Jun 18, 2009 Proficiency CP Boost Rank Alpha	Well, I can't say I disagree with this. Just to tell you flat-out, I started my RPing on Star Trek boards, where we all had one post a week minimum, and pretty much a set posting order. But we dealt with hotswapping pretty easily, and it can be done, as long as you have defined mission roles. Also, running subplots within missions (or even forking a mission) can sometimes be difficult, but there are ways to go about it. Though, I would say that perhaps Squads are not the best situation for this, rather, assign people as individuals to a department (Demolitions, Biowar, R&D, InfOps, etc.), and try to have a wide range of skill-sets so that a Harbinger in that area can select a team of diverse individuals. I'd also start pushing for smaller missions - send out, say, a pair of Grunts to do recon, or recruit, or whatnot. There's a reason why Jessie & James, and Butch & Cassidy, were out there. Does a team of 6 people make sense for an organized mission? Yes. Does a team of 6 on long-term duty make sense? Not as such, no. Oh, and if you don't want a pair of Grunts, then an Elite and a Grunt, or a Harbinger and a Grunt.
	"The eternal silence of these infinite spaces fills me with dread." -Blaise Pascal


Akari	Jul 31 2009, 11:50:31 AM Post #5
get some Posts: 120 Group: Trainer Member #292 Joined: Jun 29, 2008	I don't really believe in a posting order, per say. I think anyone not mind-blowingly retarded can RP directly with another person and figure out when to stop and wait for the other people to catch up- since most missions people end up splitting up at some point anyway. But if I had a posting order, Munch's proposition would be it, so I'm fine with that as well. I agree with more player-environment control. We have great members here who I think can control themselves- if it where anywhere else I'd want strict restrictions on it, a full set of rules, ect ect. But with the player base we have now, I think a simple "YOU CAN MAKE STUFF APPEAR" in the rules would be appropriate. I MEAN, THIS ISN'T TOHEA, AMIRITE? If someone important totally idles out, maybe theres a way we can allow another member to puppet them? Like if a Harbinger's family suddenly dies in a tragic pottery accident, he could just hand the reins over to someone else and allow them to post as their character. If they wrote a good profile anyone not completely retarded could RP that character somewhat decently. And if the actual Harbinger comes back he can just edit the posts to his liking, keeping the same premise. Or, gentle puppeting by all mission characters- just simple "he said 'GO HERE, DO THAT'" instead of any full blown posts from that character. I prefer this for the most part, but the previously mentioned method works much better long-term, should a really important person suddenly 'quit' the RP or such tomfoolery. Part of the idling out issue is that people spend way too long on posts that don't need to be that fucking long/great (XP bonus rule should be altered to accommodate this, perhaps a penalty for obnoxious lengths between posts in a multiplayer thread?). Christ, its an RP. I think a part of the problem is the weird pattern a lot of missions have gone into- instead of actually posting short posts to allow other characters to respond and input, ect ect everyone seems to post these long ass dictions where their character just ignores everyone else and does a bunch of shit. Then, someone else posts a long ass diction in response to the previous diction, in which they must COPY PASTE or EXPLAIN what they part of the previous post they are responding to because its too damn long to tell. There is nothing wrong with that, but RPs of that nature generally do not move very fast and we shouldn't expect them to. Hotswapping: Not a fan of the kicking method propose dhere. I've just seen it done SO TERRIBLY so many times. I just think someone saying "oh john left he got a mission" without anyone seeing him leave, receiving the order, ect ect would just be stupid. Most people would willingly sacrifice realism for functionality, but little things like that, for some reason, just annoy the shit out of me. I'd be fine with it if the Harbinger pulled it off decently with a bit of environment control, but I think this sort of thing should be limited. More troops? Now that sounds like a good idea, especially the "jumping in" thing. I disagree with Endy on the point of assigning departments. I mean, some people only "specialize" in RIP AND TEAR and we don't have a division for that, exactly. That reminds me- I propose player liaison officers from support divisions. This would explain why Cuekat is in the field in the first place.



Palia	Jul 31 2009, 09:11:03 PM Post #6
Posts: 18 Group: Trainer Member #541 Joined: Jun 9, 2009 Proficiency XP Boost	Pao Jul 31 2009, 11:50:31 AM I think a part of the problem is the weird pattern a lot of missions have gone into- instead of actually posting short posts to allow other characters to respond and input, ect ect everyone seems to post these long ass dictions where their character just ignores everyone else and does a bunch of shit. Then, someone else posts a long ass diction in response to the previous diction, in which they must COPY PASTE or EXPLAIN what they part of the previous post they are responding to because its too damn long to tell. There is nothing wrong with that, but RPs of that nature generally do not move very fast and we shouldn't expect them to. I find this a problem too, especially when it comes to dialogue. Sometimes characters say more than one or two lines per post, and a lot of times the first line requires response...but if I respond to it directly after they say it (which is the normal way people talk, right? :/) then it should logically change what the other lines are. Or if they do say something like...really important to the plot that requires response, sometimes they go off to a whole bunch of other shit, leaving my character scratching her head as to why her partner just ran off without waiting for a response. ((I think this is what you were getting at Pao, right?)) Edited by Palia, Jul 31 2009, 09:11:32 PM.
	Forest Shenanigans ~ About Us


Devlin	Aug 1 2009, 08:24:29 PM Post #7
Fuck Yeah Posts: 815 Group: Trainer Member #18 Joined: Apr 9, 2008 Proficiency $$ Boost Rank Alpha	I think its part of rping to know when to stop a post without going so far that no one can keep up. I understand that a lot of people feel big post means they have to do a lot to get there, but that's not always true, and its not a shitty post if you only do a paragraph or so to pick your nose and respond to someone. Yeah, its just a paragraph, but you did everything you need to do. People shouldn't go way beyond what everyone else is doing. The reason this happens is both because people want to make 'better post' and because often at max you get to post in your topic one or twice a day. This is a terrible shame and personally takes away from a lot of the fun RPing has. The reason I often lose interest in Rps is because I only post once or twice a day, if im lucky enough to get even that. But with conflicting secludes its impossibly hard to expect this kind of thing to change unless you have a very small group, or a story teller that knows how to compensate for that kind of thing. As for people disappearing, it should be alright for whoever is telling the story to enforce a 24 hour puppeteer rule. If you don't make a post when you NEED to post, it should be the story tellers job to puppet your character, not directly, but push them to the back and continue on without you, so no one else suffers because your life is busy. You should also have the respect to totally allow that kind of thing for everyone who isn't busy. In fact, if you don't feel like posting within the next few hours, when you know at least 2-3 other people are and want to, you should let that happen as well. Its the story tellers part to make sure your character is handled proper, and any harbinger should be trusted to do so.
	\| Aron \| HP: 10 // Att: 4 \|\| Def: 9 // SpA: 5 \|\| SpD: 5 // Agi: 1


Munchkinator	Aug 1 2009, 10:18:29 PM Post #8
Don't waste my time. Posts: 2,946 Group: Architect Member #1 Joined: Mar 22, 2008 Proficiency AP Boost Rank Alpha	Given the average writing quality of what I saw of the old OPP, I'm not entirely sure that we should be following their example. Otherwise, I agree. Since the only thing that seems to be an issue is post length/speed, neither of which can I well affect with new rules, I'll get to work on fixing teh roolz up.



Devlin	Aug 2 2009, 01:10:32 PM Post #9
Fuck Yeah Posts: 815 Group: Trainer Member #18 Joined: Apr 9, 2008 Proficiency $$ Boost Rank Alpha	Difference between OPP and here is that we have more good rpers average then OPP did. OPP only had like, 2-3 crews full of good rpers. We have way over half the population able to make post that are generally bad ass. Even then, OPP wasn't as high a level rping as althea is. Just means we have more skilled rpers here, so shit that involves us thinking and rping awesomely we should have way more down then OPP ever did. Edited by Devlin, Aug 2 2009, 01:13:15 PM.
	\| Aron \| HP: 10 // Att: 4 \|\| Def: 9 // SpA: 5 \|\| SpD: 5 // Agi: 1


Clothos	Aug 3 2009, 02:54:23 AM Post #10
Living Weapon Posts: 49 Group: Arbiter Member #49 Joined: Apr 11, 2008 Proficiency AP Boost	I dunno if there's really anything I can do about long-ass posts ignoring everyone else, either. Honestly, so far I haven't seen anyone really doing that - some people post longer than others, but I've yet to see people actually ignoring others or not giving them a chance to respond unless they were giving orders - and in a Harbinger's case, that's understandable. Pao, would you be willing to furnish examples, whether in my own writing (considering how much I drone on, I'm probably an offender) or someone else's? Posting speed aside, I'm really happy with how everyone is RPing and interacting with each other constantly. Much better than lone journies and such.



Akari	Sep 10 2009, 06:12:37 PM Post #11
get some Posts: 120 Group: Trainer Member #292 Joined: Jun 29, 2008	/MORE LATE It seems we have taken my words to a different meaning. I do not in any way think that this style of RPing is bad or undesirable (although rereading it, I realise my wording was a bit...aggressive for my point of view) but simply noted that it takes longer than other styles of RP. I don't really seem to see the need to furnish examples in this case, as it was merely an observation. This sort of RP would probably do better in this method. I love the way topics work now. Journeys always were sort of like... silent brooding topics. It was a miracle if you could get a partner, back in the day. I wll not let you die, Althea bb. Edited by Akari, Sep 10 2009, 06:13:34 PM.



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